$\"User$

DennisN wrote:

Time for a brief history lesson. The nation of Iraq was created by teh wrongful intervention of other countries. Iraq was formed by the French and British as provided by the Sykes-Picot Agreement. No true unified nation of Iraq has ever existed. That\'s one reason I always cringe when I hear George W. talk about "the Iraqi people", because there really is no such thing. Obviously Britain and France got it wrong the first time around, just as we (and our "coalition", whatever that means) got it wrong this time. The Bush argument linking Iraq to Vietnam is the latest, most desperate plea from an administration that is fundamentally unable to admit a mistake and is endlessly searching for a new justification for their actions.

8/24/2007 9:59:44 AM

Report abuse

$\"User$

pennyforyourthoughts wrote:

To add, I don\'t buy the Domino Theory of surrounding states falling to religious extremism. However, it seems fairly likely that a U.S. pullout will plunge the area into instability on a scale even greater than the situation currently before us. Common predictions forecast that Turkey will likely invade the Kurdish region (at the very least to flush out the PKK), Saudi Arabia will probably send some form of support (arms, men, funds) to defend against Shi\'a dominance. Iran will take an even greater role in shaping geopolitics. It should be stressed that such events are guaranteed, but it isn\'t a stretch that it would occur as far as I can see. These will most likely have very real repurcussiions for the U.S. diplomatically and economically.

8/24/2007 9:07:38 AM

Report abuse

$\"User$

pennyforyourthoughts wrote:

I agree with tdgrif on this one. Buzzanco made Bush\'s analogy even more strikingly correct. It seems as though Buzzanco comes to the appropriate conclusion that genocide will occur, but avoids conceding by adopting euphemisms, such as "sort out their problems." He resorts to hoping that the Iraqis won\'t slaughter each other. I\'m sorry, but if we withdraw, they will. Of course, we have strategic interests in Iraq as well.

Buzzanco states that there aren\'t genocidal killing groups lurking in Iraq. He must be wilfully ignorant. Many of the Eight Stages of Genocide--penned by Gregory H. Stanton, founder of Genocide Watch (genocidewatch.com) and the Cambodian Genocide Project--are manifest in Iraq.

1) Classification: Sunnis and Shi\'a (and Kurds). Genocide is most likely in binary societies.

2) Symbolization: We give names or other symbols to the classification. Hostile Sunni and Shi\'a groups have been spewing slurs at one another, calling each other infidels, unbelievers, dogs, etc. These are pretty awful things to say to call one another in a society that values religious piety and finds dogs unclean. In addition, one\'s name carries religious symbolism. In fact, it can be a death sentence. Militias in Iraq have targeted, tortured, kidnapped, and murdered people with names that signify a particular branch of Islam. Omar, for example,is Sunni. According to a Time article, "bodies of 14 Omars were found in a Baghdad garbage dump" in 2006.

I don\'t have time to detail all of them, but the remaining stages are:
3)dehumanization of targeted group (torture, calling them "dogs").
4)organization- (militias)
5)polarization- (differences between Shi\'a and Sunni existed before U.S. presence, but our policies exacerbated them)
6)preparation- death lists are drawn up. This has already occurred; Iraqis are finding their names on online death lists.
7)extermination- We\'ve only seen the beginning.
8)And, when it is over, there is a Denial that it occurred.

It seems wheels of genocide are in motion. Again, tdgrif points out the similarities between Vietnam, Cambodia, and Iraq. While Buzzanco may have a strong command of the facts, IMO his analysis comes up short.

8/24/2007 8:58:53 AM

Report abuse

$\"User$

HighAnxiety wrote:

From what I\'ve read and heard about Iraq\'s internal problems, it seems that similarity between the Vietnam conflict and the Iraq conflict boils down to the U.S. government dragging our country into an unwinnable situation where we are in "over our heads". If the draft had been reinstated, and the sons and daughters of our Congressmen/women had been forced to fight in Iraq, I think the opposition we are now seeing from the President\'s own party would have happened a lot sooner.

8/24/2007 8:54:29 AM

Report abuse

$\"User$

tdgrif wrote:

Am I reading the same points that Prof. Buzzanco used to support his argument or has something been edited?

Until reading this Op-Ed, I agreed with the headline that there was no analogy between Cambodia and Iraq. Yet, just the opposite appears to be true. To wit:

1) The U.S. intervened in both countries. This caused a revolt by a third party, the Khmer Rouge, in Cambodia to replace the government while we ousted a malicious dictator in Iraq. Either way, there was some type of intervention.

2) There was and are at least one warring faction in both countries which seem bent on genocide, the Khmer Rouge and take your choice of the Shiite or Sunni radicals.

The difference is that the Khmer Rouge did take over Cambodia while neither the Shiites nor Sunnis have taken over Iraq.

I am not saying that I support or denounce Iraq, only that the facts presented by Prof. Buzzanco do not support his conclusion that the analogy is incorrect. Rather, they support a very distinct possibility that we have opened a Pandora\'s box which can ultimately result in a Cambodia like case of genocide. The intervention has happened. The waring factions have happened. Only the genocide remains. Both Cambodia and Iraq are the result of U.S. blunders and the Law of Unintended Consequences.

8/24/2007 7:40:39 AM

Report abuse

1 2 >> Last